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Philip Sellers: Welcome to another episode of Nutanix Weekly. And I'm your host, Phil Sellers. I'm the practice director for Modern Data Center here at Zintegra. We say modern data center because we don't have all that silly baggage of traditional infrastructure. We we focus on modern hybrid cloud. And

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Philip Sellers: that just happens to be what we're talking about today. But you know I can't have one of these solo, so I've got some great great folks joining me 1st up Mr. Gyrocox from Nutanix, a field CTO level employee, smart guy, and

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Philip Sellers: Happy to have him here on on the podcast with us, as usual.

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Jirah Cox: Happy to be here. Thanks, Philip.

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Philip Sellers: We've also got former nutanix employee. And I'm happy to say, integra solutions architect Chris Calhoun. Chris came to us how many months ago?

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: It was in October.

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Philip Sellers: October. So yeah, he's he's at the 6 month mark. Which means I can now send anything and everything your way right like that's that's the the mark, right?

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Jirah Cox: Fully on boarded.

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: You hadn't been doing that already.

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: You've been holding back on me.

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: Very true, maybe. I guess next week we'll we'll find out right the pain. Yep.

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Philip Sellers: Well, one as always want to say, thank you for spending a few minutes with us. You know this podcast. Is one of the many different versions of content with context. Here at Zintegra, we like to

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Philip Sellers: bring our real world experiences to the content that we find online. And so today's episode, we're talking about multi-cloud again. So we're diving deeper. Last episode, we kind of did a comparing contrast between multiple clouds or multi-cloud. And so we want to dig a little deeper into this, and so we're reviewing a blog post from Nicholas

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Philip Sellers: Hollyan a worldwide field CTO at Nutanix. Did I butcher his name? Jaira, can you help me out on that

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Jirah Cox: Really close. Paulian. Yep, Nicholas, holy? Yeah. Great

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Philip Sellers: So shout out to Nicholas, thanks for posting this and the last blog post that we just reviewed. But yeah, it's titled moving from multiple clouds to multi cloud 6 steps to creating a modern environment. And so I love this because we're all about modern data center.

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Philip Sellers: Hybrid multi cloud is the epitome of modern data center. In my opinion, that's kind of what we're modeling everything that we do here. It's integra around and it's really about that cloud operating model. So do things scale. How do we protect it? All of those sorts of concepts? So as we kind of dive in on this. I'm curious, you know, Jaira, as as you're working with customers out there.

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Philip Sellers: Are you having a lot of conversations around multi-cloud

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Jirah Cox: Wow! Almost everyone. I would say, it's it's a it's yeah. It's certainly a frequent topic.

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Philip Sellers: Yeah. And and I guess you know, as we kind of approach this recapping the the last episode.

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Philip Sellers: I kind of talk a little bit about

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Philip Sellers: being a unwilling participant in multiple cloud. You know, merger and acquisition gives you that benefit. Right? You get lots of things you inherit. But you didn't necessarily strategically plan, for.

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Philip Sellers: So I have lot of organizations end up in this multiple cloud world.

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Philip Sellers: how many are are strategically planning for multi-cloud

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Jirah Cox: Strategically planning for multi-cloud not enough. But we're trying to help

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Philip Sellers: Okay? Then, I think that's a really good thing for us to dig in on today. How do we strategically plan for for that

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Jirah Cox: Yeah.

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Philip Sellers: So. Chris, I know you're a former customer. You're also a former nutanix solutions engineer. What? What were conversations like? With your customers as as they're looking at this sort of multiple cloud versus multi cloud

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: There definitely were several questions to be discussed, obviously trying to plan out a good strategy that that was a key takeaway from what you just said to me was all right.

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: What are we looking to accomplish? Is it just the idea of we don't want to be in the data center business anymore. Or is this a business decision so that we can be more agile, be more flexible? And that flexibility lends itself to, hey, let's don't just move workloads. Let's understand what we're looking to accomplish, because

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: getting out of the data center business is is not the right reason. Necessarily, it's understanding your business initiatives.

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: I think that I've heard before in discussion with customers.

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: The cloud is not a destination, it's an operating model, and that's where Nutanix comes in and benefits as far as that operating model, the flexibility to know that you've got the agility to use your cloud spend in azure or use credits. If you've got something working with aws already, or just the benefit there of

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: not having a single

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: resource of contention to say, Hey, we're putting all our eggs in a single cloud basket. You know that that gives the business the flexibility, and, like you, said mergers and acquisitions. There may be companies that you inherit like you say, that may be all azure, all aws. So, having that flexibility to me was the key determination that customers were initially

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: the strategy behind needed to be defined on that first, st to understand where the direction would go. If that makes sense

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Philip Sellers: You know, I think back to my time kind of running teams, the silos

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Philip Sellers: that we've been breaking from a nutanix perspective from the very beginning, right? You know, hyper conversions about bringing those silos down.

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Philip Sellers: those silos become even more pronounced when you're talking about multiple clouds, because

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Philip Sellers: Gcp is not the same as aws is not the same as azure. They all have a very distinct way of approaching things. I think, back to

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Philip Sellers: you know what it was like in the early day of blade servers. You had Cisco with their very network centric way of dealing with blade servers and hpe and dell over here with their very server based way of dealing with with blades aws, azure and Gcp. They they all have their way of kind of

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Philip Sellers: approaching technology, taxonomy, all this other stuff that's cloudy.

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Philip Sellers: but not necessarily technical. And so there's the extra overhead and silos that that pop up when we start talking about multiple clouds.

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Philip Sellers: so so what is the roadmap actually look like? Let's dig in on that I'm gonna go over these step by step. And I'm gonna throw it to you guys and let's talk about each one of these step number one that Nicholas points out is gain a clear understanding of your current. It landscape and workloads.

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Philip Sellers: I guess. Why is that important, Jaira? I mean

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Philip Sellers: doesn't sound that important to me. And and I hope you. Everyone listening gets a little bit of the the sarcasm dripping. There

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: But they don't

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Jirah Cox: Yeah, I mean, I've never heard of any other strategy plan that starts with assess. Right? How unique! You know. Assess an inventory. But what? It's such a novel approach. But no, it's it's, of course, thoroughly appropriate right? Because when it comes to, you know that sort of like. Take inventory, understand? Landscaping workloads. Remember, there's kind of like largely. If you zoom out there's 2 buckets here right? There's like

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Jirah Cox: it governed workloads in the cloud or clouds plural, and there are, let's call it less than fully. It governed workloads in cloud or clouds. Right? You know the the previous episode, you know. Talked about, you know, shadow it right like what caused this situation that we find ourselves in as a starting point of being in multiple clouds. And how do we apply and go on a journey? Of a multi cloud strategy. Right? So so understanding what's out there?

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Jirah Cox: Yeah, I think it's absolutely key. Around.

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Jirah Cox: You know, the the Nicholas even points out one wonderful tact here of even like implementing amnesty right? Like

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Jirah Cox: This is this is the judgment free zone. You just be honest with us. Right? What do you got in cloud? You know. Help us. Take a full accounting. Here is a a really great approach, right to say, like I, we need to make the most fully informed decision we possibly can. So we need the best data set in order to do that

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Philip Sellers: Yeah, it's like, you're not gonna get in trouble like, it's safe. We're safe space. Bring it in. And you know that is true. I mean it. It is incredibly easy for our business users to go and swipe a credit card and I'm not picking on my marketing team because it's a great tool. But, like canva.

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Philip Sellers: you know, I know my wife uses canva, and I'm sure so many business users probably have a subscription. And so their organizations for paying for canva, probably having it expensed and no idea.

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Philip Sellers: But it's an incredibly useful product to the business user.

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Jirah Cox: And we have to reconcile

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Jirah Cox: our desires with with the business users and the business desire right? Because, like nowhere on our project, plan is break apps right or deny users or reduce functionality. Right? We're on a mission here to add governance control costs add strategy, add intentionality

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Jirah Cox: while preserving app functionality, right? So there's some. There's some I'll say synergy.

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Jirah Cox: overused word. But true, there's some there's some aligned interests right in, like. The more I know about your apps and what you have deployed, the the less likelihood we're gonna break something here as we do this

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Philip Sellers: Absolutely. I do feel like I need sound effects. So as you talk about shadow it, I do feel like we need like a bomb bump, kind of like sound effect to come after it. It sounds so scary. And and I guess to a degree, when you're tasked with data governance security. It could be very scary.

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Philip Sellers: but really, I mean, this is our business constituents trying to get work done at the end of the day, and they're looking for the path of least resistance. And so I I do kind of think back to the Phoenix project and the land of no insecurity. And so when you become too tight and stringent and people can't get their job done that induces some of this shadow. It experience.

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Philip Sellers: you know, it's it's definitely something important, but because it exists, your points well taken, we need to know that it's out there. I think it's actually really smart to talk about amnesty.

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Philip Sellers: you know. I it. It's it's interesting. I mean, that's usually a concept of other other types of

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Jirah Cox: Yeah.

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Philip Sellers: I'm just

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Jirah Cox: Well, and you know it's it's it's

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Jirah Cox: worth pointing out like this. We might have had a bit of a Us centric viewpoint there around like, oh, it's for cost, control, and governance when in reality, like other parts of the world, knowing what you have in certain cloud, deployments is simply a matter of compliance, right? And could you be sued for where you've placed certain data, or is your business at risk? So it is critical. To get this right? I can picture there is an alternate timeline where this podcast. Is not called in Phoenix Weekly. It's titled like.

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Jirah Cox: ultimately, everything ties back to Phoenix Project

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Philip Sellers: Very true. Well, Chris, you and I were on a a phone call earlier today with a customer, and we were talking through things. And this particular customer was smarter than the average bear, like, let let's say it that way. Hey, boo! Boo! Definitely ahead of the curve, right? More technical than a lot of the folks. This this shop was sharp.

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Philip Sellers: yeah, I think

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Philip Sellers: when we talk to a customer like that, they may have a good handle on their inventory and things like that. But there are a lot of other shops that may not know like, what do you think the people add to that equation, like the different it teams the different dynamics. There

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: Great question, and and I'll say, in a former life I've had to deal with some of that amnesty in the sense that there would be app dev teams that would come to me and say, Hey, I've set up a

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: a great application that I need you to help help me with. I've got a problem. Sure.

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: What's the login information? Oh, it's an azure.

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: What? Excuse me, how did you? How did you?

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: Then? It just kind of turns to a question of.

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: He holds his head down and says I had to get it done, you know, and that's the approach that I think that, like you said, there's a security aspect from an infrastructure for governance that can

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: basically be a block for the business teams that have that pressure of. We've got to deliver, and we can't wait 2 weeks to get approval from an infrastructure team. To fill out all of the paperwork, to check boxes, etc.

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: But that's where.

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: Then you've got to realize, what am I? What am I putting the business.

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: and what type of situation am I putting the business in from a security aspect. Then if I do jump ahead and and haven't thought about that from full stack support model and that's where I think that, like you said, the pressures and drivers are usually in the cases like this. Business demands. It's not necessarily it driven. If

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: if it shops had the opportunity to say, Hey, let's stop all work and devote the next 2 weeks we'll say 2 weeks generously to providing you a safe space landing zone in cloud of choice

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: great, that would be fantastic. But the business can't stop. And so that's where it's a struggle I see from my past life of being able to support those where? Yeah, they had to get it done. They're looking to move something from

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: their azure personal account to oh, now, now this is production. Well, what do you mean? Production? It's not production, ready

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: part of that assessment that we're kind of talking to now. And I think that that's really key in understanding how there is a

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: beginning, middle, and end to a fully produced

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: workload that has the right guardrails, governance, monitoring effectiveness that often gets left out whenever

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Philip Sellers: You know.

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: There's urgency and pressures and demands from the business

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Philip Sellers: Yeah, it reminds me of a conversation we had with another customer. They had a digital team. They were trying to get some portals and other things out. They spun that up in aws, and they let it go. And they did, you know, rudimentary things. But that's become a project to revisit to make sure that the governance is correct, to make sure the underpinning and security is all where it needs to be. But you know that's the compromise, and and I do think.

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Philip Sellers: if anything, from step one that softer stance with your business partners and with your constituents is probably the the overarching thing. Here. We need to know about it. So don't

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Philip Sellers: rule with the iron fist and make sure that it's a safe space, so that you can learn about all the different things that are in use in your environment.

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Jirah Cox: I maybe, as a clothing thought on that one is. But also.

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Jirah Cox: remember, you've got friends in accounting right, and maybe asking for hey? Where are reimbursements going? And does anything rhyming with aws or azure can also be one last data point right to just sort of reconcile and say, do we think we found everything

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Philip Sellers: You know. Honestly I I loved the the folks that worked with us on expenses and

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Philip Sellers: reimbursements and stuff at my last organization. And so I'm sure Katie will never hear this podcast but shout out to Katie, because she was amazing. But yeah, I mean, they're they're a great resource for you that that is

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Philip Sellers: absolutely the case. Also, don't forget about your corporate logins. So entre id octa. Things like that can be used for discovery, because people have the ability to sign into all these Saas platforms using their corporate credentials. Not always requiring an app registration and things like that sometimes they just work. So

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Philip Sellers: a couple good tips, I think, from the real world

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Philip Sellers: step 2. Understand the tools and technology used in each silo. I talked a little bit about silos. But I guess how does this affect things, Jare? I'll throw it to you

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Jirah Cox: So I think, like like Chris and I both said separately, like, you know, the goal here is not to

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Jirah Cox: in fact, the business. In fact, the goal is definitely to do very much the opposite right? And so in that vein, understanding people's processes and tooling.

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Jirah Cox: is important, right. It's yet one more form of accounting to take. Cast a wide net. Understand? Who does? What? What's their, what their process, and what their tooling is to do it to, you know, be able to understand. Where do we go from here? Around what's proprietary? What is reusable? What's agnostic?

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Jirah Cox: Is something done by a business unit is something done? Provided by a business unit, but done by a self service. Right? Understanding all these things. Lets us know, what kind of paths we need to pave

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Jirah Cox: to keep people functioning right? And I'm I'm actually reminded of, you know, all those maps we've seen on campuses, or of those like paths of desire, where people are walking here and killing the grass. Therefore we should just put a path there to make that a a, you know. Officially supported kind of path. I need a better word for path there. But supported process. Same thing applies here in the in the digital world as well

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Philip Sellers: Yeah, Chris, you you were talking about this earlier. But you know all the different teams working differently. You know their different tools. You know that.

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Philip Sellers: I think, drives us to be more inquisitive. The land of why, instead of the land of No, maybe

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: Absolutely. Yeah. It's it's a understanding of of the direction that you you're taking the

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: your business as well as understanding how. Then the support model changes from an infrastructure perspective. Where in an old hat or past life of mine here's a quick story and understanding about just hey? Once the decision was made to go, we'll say all aws, for example, then that creates the silo, which is the discussion point around step number 2 is okay.

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: once, once engineers start working in that

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: world in that land of Aws, their skills, their their tooling there and understanding of technology changes from a total cloud focused mindset in that. Okay?

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: In a past life I had to go to a specific engineer that handled cloud versus the engineer that handled the on prem environment. Because in a real world you're not going to be able to just say, Okay, let's turn the lights off on our on Prem environment. And and and now it's just magically ready in the cloud, and everybody is on the same level playing field from a tool set. So understanding that and then

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: the key differentiator, too, for me in the past was okay. I've got the right internal contacts. But then.

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: what's the routing like for support? Who do you go to whenever there is a problem, you know, and I think that that's something, too, that. And again, infrastructure mindset of

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: supporting large enterprise companies and as well as small companies. Okay, it's more hands off in the cloud model. You're relying on that cloud vendor. Usually it's submitting a ticket, an online process. But knowing that, and then knowing the turnaround time, you then have to set expectations with the business of Okay, it's in their hands now. So how do you. How do you go about

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: setting up that infrastructure and that that process, as Jara mentioned, it's it's really a different mindset of understanding what's needed

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: and the capabilities around that. So

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Philip Sellers: Yeah, it it definitely is a thing where you

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Philip Sellers: Sorry I lost my train of thought there for a moment. But you you definitely start to train different standards and things. And so I think, kind of flowing right into step number 3 here, standardizing your environments, your tools, your technology has a huge benefit for organizations. So you know, as you kind of talked about different

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Philip Sellers: different toolings. Kind of creating silos. Yeah, I think back to discussions. That I had around. Should we use Ami's azure machine? Definitions? And

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Philip Sellers: or should we try and do something? That's more, you know

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Philip Sellers: dial tone across multiple things, leading us down the road of Kubernetes to kind of give us that equal playing field

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Philip Sellers: rather than things that were cloud specific.

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Philip Sellers: I I guess. Step 3 going here, I mean, what? What advice is out there for companies trying to standardize on their environments and tools

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Jirah Cox: So well, or or or even opportunities right to standardize, to standardize right so like the like, not leaving behind that opportunity to unify on approaches right like perhaps offering, like tiering of solutions of like. Here's the recommended solution. Other things are possible. Right? That might have a bit less corporate.

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Jirah Cox: it support. You know, more of a self service. Approach, but that getting to that final state quicker. Helps customers make those changes faster, right, or really helps our customers. Customers make those changes faster. Say, this is the recommended adoption path. Other things are possible in a more of a boutique fashion. But but

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Jirah Cox: you know, I guess to use to mix some metaphors here, looking across the arrows and saying, we're gonna put all of our weight behind this one arrow or the subset of arrows right, and saying, Let's standardize here and and encourage that has benefits. I even have. I have customers that as they move to Nutanix, they find that they

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Jirah Cox: are freeing up time in their day to day, that they can then go meet with their business partners and say, Hey, let's run a class for you on deploying via terraform, right? Or or you know how to use ansible to manage workloads. Let's help you adopt. You know, next generation technology, so that you can better govern and consume a next Gen. Platform.

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Jirah Cox: When I lose my train of thought. One thing that's fun to say is, oh, what's the right word in English, but it doesn't work when you're not multilingual. So

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Philip Sellers: Yeah, fair enough, right my! My train of thought derailed completely there just a a few minutes ago.

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Philip Sellers: Chris, so you've been through this. And and so as you kinda started adopting cloud stuff inside of your organization in the past, you you shared a little bit that you had certain specialists you had to go to, and it was different, and you may have known everybody on the inside. But then, you know now that it's a little cloudy. You may not know who or where things live. So

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Philip Sellers: how? How does that kind of play out long term? What did you do to help solve that over time

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: That was the key thing you obviously said, hey, you know now who to go to in the certain respects of who owns

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: what application. But you don't necessarily know where the applications live. So basically trying to work on a master, where does stuff live now in a period of transition. Is this an on prem, because obviously those are different resources to go to versus a cloud, and that's really part of the.

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: If I had hair, I would pull it out.

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: But obviously in the case, don't have that to worry about. But the case of okay, what support model? What's the language that I speak whenever I speak azure versus aws versus on prem, and and understanding that. And that's where I can tell you. It was very tough to understand

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: where where an application lives. There was early naming of on-prem systems that pretty much gave clear reference to that. But then that's also there's a difference in each Vm. Being a specialist that you knew exactly where that little sweetheart lived, and that was based off of a naming system. Well, there's a difference in that in managing

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: 5,000 vms across the landscape and

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: treating those differently than okay, I'm not going to be able to know the names of every single one of those. So I've taken a different perspective, looking at

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: a cattle versus a pet approach of

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: hurting your vms, knowing that, or we'll say, cloud resources not necessarily vms in a Kubernetes world, but basically understanding that you do need to be more mindful need to have more documentation in place to know where where items live, because that's really the key to supporting this multi-cloud approach.

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Philip Sellers: We talked a little bit about this earlier, I think, but you know where becomes your source of authority on where things live. You know, I I think about

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Philip Sellers: Cmdbs. You know, we we've relied on those and Itil processes in the past. We've we've had monitoring systems. We've had.

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Philip Sellers: You know. Maybe you know V center in the past or prism central.

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Philip Sellers: Now, where do you go to? To answer that question of what lives? Where? You know, kubernetes, these, these are not permanent workloads. They're very temporal workloads. And so

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Philip Sellers: you know, the naming is not going to match that little convention. If they're automatically spun up by a Kubernetes control plane. So there are new problems that that come up here. And I do think the

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Philip Sellers: point here around standardizing environments and tools and technologies has benefits. You know, if if Nutanix becomes your de facto standard, the fact that that same

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Philip Sellers: implementation, same software code base can run in any of these clouds offers you benefits. It's the same operating style. You don't train

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Philip Sellers: your team again. You have a very consistent way of interacting with each of these cloud destinations on the same stack, Kubernetes very much the same. If you've got a Kubernetes stack in each of these destinations, then the

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Philip Sellers: the whole conversation becomes

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Philip Sellers: more of a where's the right destination versus what is the right tool? What is the right cloud? It just becomes different. Pods of infrastructure in a geography.

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Philip Sellers: So

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Philip Sellers: yeah, we've we've got a number of more steps here, 6 steps. I don't think we're gonna get through them all today. So we may have to break this into a part 2

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Philip Sellers: because I like the discussion so much. I I do want to continue talking about this, because I think it's realistic

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Philip Sellers: problems that that we're encountering. So before we wrap up, I do want to just kind of throw it back to both of you. I mean, as we think about tooling as we think about that. You know where I don't know. Rolodex is not the right word that Rosetta Stone of where things live.

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Philip Sellers: thoughts on, on how people can approach that in a modern way.

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Jirah Cox: That that library of Alexandria of where stuff?

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Jirah Cox: I think it's it's so neat. How

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Jirah Cox: in this blog post, from a technology company like the guidance it it to do a dramatic under service of of over summarization. Here is primarily talk to your people

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Jirah Cox: right and and lead lead well at the human level.

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Jirah Cox: In so many ways like it's, there's there's tooling for a lot of stuff, you know. There's there's

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Jirah Cox: benefits to centralizing on tool sets and standardizing and processes, and so forth. But fundamentally, I think everything is is a flavor of.

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Jirah Cox: Know your business, know your teams, know your counterparts elsewhere in the business, and work with them

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Philip Sellers: Yeah, and and and go farther together, cooperate

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: Yeah, there. Obviously, in a technology stack, we'd like to have an app or some type of automation control this aspect of it. But more times than not. It's basically, hey.

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: this certain person is in charge of all of app dev. Let's let them, you know it's it may not be a single point, it may be, engage in those resources exactly like you've mentioned Jaira and Philip pointing out, Hey, this is where you communicate and over communicate during times of change. Whenever you are moving business initiatives to different infrastructure models so definitely

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: a time to focus on that and be intentful

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Chris Calhoun | XenTegra: and have that purpose, driven conversation with your customers and clients, both internally and externally.

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Philip Sellers: And and you know we we unveiled a new mission statement. It's integra earlier this year to engage, listen, and

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Philip Sellers: deliver enterprise solutions for all of our clients. And I love our new mission statement because that second action word is, listen. And I think that comes across here as a technologist. You need to listen, so that when you're trying to make this transformation

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Philip Sellers: that you're getting a feedback loop from others, that you're dressing any of their concerns. And so that listen. Phase really important here, too. That's what I also hear coming through is.

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Philip Sellers: listen to those business

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Philip Sellers: constituents your App Devs folks and kind of respond with that. So I think that's a great place for us to wrap up for this episode. I look forward to getting back together and and delving deeper. But, Jaira, Chris, thanks so much for spending time with us and for everyone listening. Want to say thanks for spending time with us as well. We'll talk to you on the next episode.

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Philip Sellers: Have a great day